Don’t be getting too high…

[Lamont29]

My recent experience while applying to some high-level jobs have taught me a few things. I wish that ‘envy’ did not play a role in hiring decisions – but it does of course. On several occasions, my resume suggested that I was more qualified than the person interviewing me. On a couple other occasions, I felt like a psychologist, listening to the complaints of senior people who should have been interviewing me for a job. Frustrated by their own lack of apparent certification accomplishments, they find a way to disqualify me for an opportunity. Just yesterday, an HR manager called me fuming that the person who should have been calling me in for a technical interview refused to even meet with me – now how odd is that?

Lucky for me, I still have more opportunities, and better yet, firm offers on the table that I am mulling. I have better luck as a contractor, but it would have been nice to have something more certain and close to home.

I have now learned to go onto Linkedin.com and research key businesses and their hiring managers. I tried “dumbing-down” my resume. I suspect that I will get more call-ins, albeit less hits. It’s just an experiment. I will give it a month or so and report back what I find.

[Lamont29]

Lucky for me that I have worked my butt off in order that I can afford to be particular in where I choose to work. I am actually grateful when I am turned away for any unpopular reasons because I avoid the headaches that are bound to come up later. I don't want anyone to feel that I am salty about what I experienced for there's too many good opportunities abound.

[Lamont29]

I don't know why ANYONE would consider themselves on top of the food chain in information security. You'll be humbled very quickly in this career field having such an attitude like that. Such individuals are disasters waiting to happen.

[mgoblue93]

You have some interesting interview experiences...

> On a couple other occasions, I felt like a psychologist,

> listening to the complaints of senior people who should

> have been interviewing me for a job.

Are you sure those were "complaints" or was the interviewer trying to tell you about the challenges of the position and the response they are seeking from a successful candidate would be to outline how one's experience would directly correlate to a plan/solution for the problem(s).

Generally, in senior level positions (which I believe you're applying for), one doesn't get to work easy "complaints" -- easy stuff is already handled at lower levels.  Which leads to why senior level interviews are harder and are more dialog/situational than straight Q & A.

> Frustrated by their own lack of apparent certification accomplishments

Hmmm... I'm  guessing making things personal like that, not in fact either, isn't a good way to land an offer.

[mgoblue93]

@suigeneris25

> I wasn't aware that the venting was
> about personal issue

That's how it came across to me. I understand this is non-verbal communication so the opportunity for misinterpretation is greater but I read it as personal rather than business:

> frustrated by their own lack of
> apparent certification

1. Seriously? The interviewer said this during the interview to the candidate? If not, I'd say that's a personal ASSUMPTION to make.

2. IF this is a "business problem" as you suggest rather than personal venting others posters here have read it as, then where's the ACTUAL business part stated in the OP? I don't see anything.

Moreover, if what is written in the OP came across in an interview (either verbally or nonverbally), I don't think it's the least bit unreasonable that the outcome is a candidate is not getting extended an offer.

Regardless if the interview and/or company is a good fit or not, I'm really stuck here at how is stating "my interviewer is frustrated at their lack of creds" and "I'm my interviewer's psychologist" is good career advice for those who come to these forums!

Perhaps the professional, grown-up, thing to do is acknowledge, hey that wasn't a good fit, is there anything I can take from this experience to help me knock the next interview out of the park, and move forward.  Judging the interviewer personally and then complaining about it later (other than to pass along actual, real, misconduct), is never a good look.

[Lamont29]

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@mgoblue93wrote:

[mgoblue93]

1.  It's not a matter of disagreeing.  I'm not that invested in your personal issues but I think a post like yours is bad advice, a bad example for a "careers" forum.  Please understand though that regardless of intent, I'm not the only one who read your post as something personal rather than professional.

2.  It's not a matter of picking and choosing portions of your post.  I quoted your words.  I quoted YOUR words which are problematic to landing offers -- which is also not a good example for the forum.

3.  If you cannot own your own words, that's NOT a class problem on my part it's a personal integrity problem on yours.  Before you point your finger at others, you may wish to look in the mirror first.

How would you like to continue... do you want to call me classless more or do you want to learn from the advice of your peers?  It's really your call.  

[Lamont29]

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@mgoblue93wrote:

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[mgoblue93]

You have ZERO idea of what critical thinking is.

...and YES, the board is interactive!!! 

In here, I've seen people give advice how to manage their systems, down to the command line level.  Give specific methods how to improve their processes.  Provide sources for study materials.  Talk about the internal workings of their team.  Post about group activities, etc.  Interestingly enough, I haven't see you in any of threads the like that.  Just the personal/negative ones.

If you don't tone down the personal rhetoric, I will respond in a like manner -- but with facts and with real-world experience and it won't reflect favorably upon you.  Again, your call.

[Lamont29]

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@mgoblue93wrote:

[Baechle]

Gentlemen (@Lamont29, @mgoblue93);

This conversation is important, and it is difficult to have.  For both of these reasons, it's beginning to degenerate.

@mgoblue93 - As you pointed out, the conversations on here have delved into the deep technical as far as what to type on a command line and up through organizational processes, and team composition.  Managing our relationships is another, yet oft looked-over component of many of our jobs.

@Lamont29 - As I was trying to point out earlier in the discussion, there are pretty much two forks in a career that we cross within the (ISC)^2 community.  Think of it similar to when you reach senior NCO ranks when you are either going MSG or 1SG.  There are senior technicians (who are our technical leaders) and then there are managers (who are our organizational leaders).

One of the problems that we face here, is that the problems of one group appear petty to the other group. 

• A technician looking at a management problem might think, "well of course you would handle a conversation this way..." but still have issues with what to type on a command line.  
• A manager looking at a technical problem might wondering, "well of course you would configure it that way..." but then be mentally debating which path to choose in a difficult encounter with another leader or subordinate.

Please, I implore you both to take a step back and see that... yes this conversation is hard, because it does get personal... but, it is also important to have a community we can come to to talk these things out.

Sincerely,

Eric B.