topic Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ... in Industry News

Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

rslade — Mon, 09 Oct 2023 09:11:45 GMT

Japan's Defense Ministry wants to build (oh, sorry, wants to get other people to build) a virus which can be used for defensive computer security.

Those who fail to learn the lessons of computer history are doomed to buy it again--repackaged. - Slade's Law of Computer History

It's been tried. It's failed.

Den Zuk was created to wipe out BRAIN, and did more damage than BRAIN. That was back in 1987, I think. Many other viruses were written to wipe out other viruses: just about all did more damage than the originals.

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

dcontesti — Fri, 03 May 2019 21:52:44 GMT

Reminds me of the course taught by the University of Calgary back in 2003......a great idea, but maybe not as well thought out as it could be.

MHOO

Diana

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

rslade — Sat, 04 May 2019 00:57:41 GMT

> dcontesti (Community Champion) posted a new reply in Industry News on 05-03-2019

> Reminds me of the course taught by the University of Calgary back in 2003......a
> great idea, but maybe not as well thought out as it could be.

Fred thought of it first, and then stopped doing it since it actually was a fairly
useless idea. His students didn't learn as much as he thought they would.

The UCalgary guy had even less to go on: his grasp of the technology and history
was pretty weak.

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Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

小熊慶一郎 — Sat, 04 May 2019 02:18:21 GMT

My understanding of this article is that Japan won't develop an anti-virus virus, but an attack-back virus. This virus is supposed to be sent to the attacker after the attack to Japan. I don't know the detail, but it sounds like a honeypot type virus.

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

Kempy — Sat, 04 May 2019 09:44:00 GMT

Finland already did this, it is called Linux 👌

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

rslade — Sat, 04 May 2019 17:58:41 GMT

> å°ç†Šæ…¶ä¸€éƒŽ (Viewer) posted a new reply in Industry News on 05-03-2019 10:18

> My understanding of this article is that Japan won't develop an anti-virus
> virus, but an attack-back virus.

OK, since I've given a presentation promoting it, I'm all for active defence. But,
in that case, it's not a virus.

> This virus is supposed to be sent to the
> attacker after the attack to Japan.

And if it *is* a virus, as we pointed out in 1988, it's a phenomenally stupid idea,
since accuracy and management of response go *right* out the window when you
are talking virus.

> I don't know the detail, but it sounds
> like a honeypot type virus.

I have been researching and writing about computer viral programs for over three
decades, and I have never heard anyone talk about a "honeypot type virus."

(Oh, and, by the way, bye-bye, since I can't log in any more ...)

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Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

AlecTrevelyan — Sat, 04 May 2019 19:08:39 GMT

@rslade wrote:

(Oh, and, by the way, bye-bye, since I can't log in any more ...)

I can't login directly to the community either. I have to login to the member portal first and then stay logged in there while I access the community so the single sign-on functionality can log me in here.

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

rslade — Sat, 04 May 2019 19:28:00 GMT

@AlecTrevelyan wrote:
@rslade wrote:

(Oh, and, by the way, bye-bye, since I can't log in any more ...)

I can't login directly to the community either. I have to login to the member portal first and then stay logged in there while I access the community so the single sign-on functionality can log me in here.

OK, now that is just completely, bizarrely weird. But it works.

Many, many thanks, 006.

OK, I guess I'm back ...

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

MikeGlassman — Sat, 04 May 2019 19:36:25 GMT

I'd be interested to know how they would know who sent the Virus etc in the first place, in order to know who to attack back.

It's becoming increasingly harder to source the source of an attack, unless you have some very good reverse engineers, know how the propagation took place, can find agent zero not only in your organization but in the machines that sent the code in the first place and so on.

I would think that you may end up hitting some poor idiot who's computer system had been taken over as a bot network.

Then again, you could always ask Arnold Schwarzenegger to "return"...

Another thought. What if the system thought it was being attacked and it was itself, and it attacked itself back. Now that would be fun to watch.

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

rslade — Sat, 04 May 2019 19:40:55 GMT

... although now "subscriptions" seems to be broken again ...

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

小熊慶一郎 — Sat, 04 May 2019 22:44:03 GMT

I agree. Identifying the real source would be impossible in a realistic time frame.

This is just my guess, but the idea might be to put the virus in the files on the honeypot so the attacker retrieve the file and be infected somehow.

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

rslade — Sun, 05 May 2019 01:37:35 GMT

@Kempy wrote:
Finland already did this, it is called Linux 👌

OK, since I'm back on, I gave you a kudo 🙂

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

Caute_cautim — Sun, 05 May 2019 19:20:20 GMT

Are you sure its not this guy again? https://www.wired.co.uk/article/japanese-virus

Regards

Caute_cautim

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

rslade — Mon, 06 May 2019 18:59:41 GMT

> MikeGlassman (Newcomer III) posted a new reply in Industry News on 05-04-2019

> I'd be interested to know how they would know who sent the Virus etc in the
> first place, in order to know who to attack back.

Attribution, still a major problem ...

> What if the
> system thought it was being attacked and it was itself, and it attacked itself
> back.

I recall an IRC transcript that had some wannabe annoying one of the old guard,
and the elder finally convinced the kid to attack 127.0.0.1.

(There's no place like 127.0.0.1 ...)

> Now that would be fun to watch.

It was ...

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Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

Caute_cautim — Mon, 06 May 2019 19:09:40 GMT

This is no different from the Japanese attempt to send long distance balloons into the jet streams towards USA during WWII, in an attempt to incapacitate the nations war machine at the time. However, they were successful, but they were not informed of this success at the time, as many payloads landed in rural areas, but not in the main metropolis.

Do not under estimate their abilities, they may be more successful, than you think.

Regards

Caute-cautim

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

Ingo — Mon, 06 May 2019 23:02:00 GMT

@Caute_cautim wrote:
Do not under estimate their abilities, they may be more successful, than you think.

Hopefully not.

German politicians currently also discuss "hack back" laws. But the politicians leading the debate do not have a clue of network/software engineering not to mention cyber security.

It's always the same. And in the end we have to clean up the mess...

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

Caute_cautim — Mon, 06 May 2019 23:13:37 GMT

@IngoExactly, like this example: https://www.itnews.com.au/news/massive-data-breach-costs-valuer-landmark-white-7m-524716?eid=1&edate=20190507&utm_source=20190507_AM&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=daily_newsletter

Someone has to recover the situation at cost, and heads may roll, or the company folds entirely.

Regards

Caute_cautim

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

Ingo — Mon, 06 May 2019 23:17:37 GMT

Unfortunately heads roll very seldom in politics for doing damage to people or businesses.

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

Caute_cautim — Mon, 06 May 2019 23:21:48 GMT

It really depends on how significant it is - normally if there is a large element of Safety of Lives or Health issues, something is done by peer pressure internationally or at least seen to be done, until the next occurrence. Rather like the recent Russian Aircraft crash after a communications failure apparently - an investigation is under way for the loss of 41 lives - but humans being what they are attempted to remove their personnel items, which they felt were more important than their own lives.

Perhaps we are becoming immune to these daily occurrences?

Regards

Caute_cautim

Re: Japan wants to write an anti-virus virus ...

MikeGlassman — Tue, 07 May 2019 04:22:44 GMT

I do not thing "we" are becoming immune.

I think that governments are becoming less caring, as long as it does not directly effect them, and this non-caring attitude, or the attitude of finding someone lower in line to hit for it, will continue.

This, for Japan, is a very normal occurrence. If it is possible to blame someone else, they will.