topic Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’ in Privacy

Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

AppDefects — Mon, 09 Oct 2023 09:47:26 GMT

According to the New York Times in the near future, travel may require digital documentation showing that passengers have been vaccinated or tested for the coronavirus. One of President Biden’s executive orders aimed at curbing the pandemic asks government agencies to “assess the feasibility” of linking coronavirus vaccine certificates with other vaccination documents, and producing digital versions of them.

The race is on to create a document or app that is accepted around the world, that protects privacy and is accessible to people regardless of their wealth or access to smartphones.

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

Early_Adopter — Sun, 07 Feb 2021 06:46:54 GMT

Various claims based systems can handle this kind of thing well, the thing is coming up with something everyone trusts, with simple registration and enrolment linked to good certification and record keeping of the jab(and some way to catch cheats).

Sadly, looking at the vaccine scramble I fear that “Regardless of wealth or access to smartphones” will end up being given lip service only - there is a derisory amount being spent of the vaccines, especially given the global cost.

The rich are not taking care of the poor raising questions of ethics and efficacy, a global immunity gradient could prove a very training ground for vaccine escape.

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

Caute_cautim — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 19:35:40 GMT

@AppDefectsWhat about a digital health pass? https://www.ibm.com/products/digital-health-pass

I agree, it will be a race, to get to the head of the queue damn the ethics, seniority, level of richness and being used to it, will rule the roost in many cases, either that or people will change countries.

This thing called COVID-19 is going to be around for many years, and then you have the antivaxers, who will expect to take up hospital beds, denying them to people who really do need them etc.

There is a long way to go.

Regards

Caute_Cautim

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

denbesten — Tue, 16 Feb 2021 03:54:25 GMT

@Caute_cautim wrote:
...and then you have the antivaxers, who will expect to take up hospital beds, denying them to people who really do need them etc.

Anti-vaxers, smokers, thrill-seekers and many Darwin award candidates are supposed to have the same level of access to a bed as everyone else. In theory, "fault" is irrelevant in patient care. Triaging patients is all about the seriousness of their condition and the ability to improve/stabilize.

I was reminded of this when my local authorities announced that younger smokers could step ahead of me in the vaccine line. Took me a while to realize that it is the same medical ethics in action. The goal is overall risk reduction, not playing judge.

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

Caute_cautim — Tue, 16 Feb 2021 03:59:12 GMT

@denbestenAnd to be quite frank, whether there is a probability they will pull through or in fact are too far gone.

I agree, it is allow risk and probabilities as well as resources.

Regards

Caute_cautim

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

Early_Adopter — Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:14:02 GMT

So of all the things out there this attitude makes the most sense to me as Covid will absolutely not respect national borders:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-wto-nigeria/incoming-wto-head-warns-vaccine-nationalism-could-slow-pandemic-recovery-idUSKBN2AF1QM

Re: Coming Soon: The "Vaccine Passport"

rslade — Sat, 08 May 2021 18:58:55 GMT

I'm not holding my breath, waiting for one.

I have, previously, mentioned John McAfee's "enterprise" regarding a similar
certificate or passport for swingers in the time of AIDS. The thing just isn't
workable, at best, and, at worst, it can be a positive danger.

You're going to have to carry some kind of document or card. Let's say it's a card.
Now, does it just give contact info for a centralized database? (One version I saw
just used a QR code on your phone, so that definitely seems to just be a "pointer"
situation.) *How* centralized? This is going to be used for international travel,
one would think, if it is going to be used at all. So which countries are going to
sign on? And which are going to accept a database in some other jurisdiction?
And which are going to accept having their citizens' data stored by someone else?

OK, so what if we make it a smart card and store it on the phone. Same problems
with jurisdiction. Which countries are going to agree (within the next few
months, please) to a standard for data storage on such a card? And start producing
them, all to the same specs.

Then we have the data. There are the details of the vaccine. Which version of
the vaccine? Which lot number? What is the date of administration? (Oh, and,
by the way, all vaccine administration points are going to have to be prepared to
input *and verify* all this information at the time you get your shot.) (Every
single nurse-practitioner's office and pharmacy.) (And the details of who entered
the info is going to have to be there as well, for verification.) Is it a multi-shot
regimen? Did you get your booster?

That's a lot of data. And, if someone gets access to it, a lot more can be inferred
from it. Like where you were on a given date and time ...

Oh, and, by the way, there are some additional data points we should add. Like,
have you been tested? What type of test? What date? Et Cetrea. Et Cetera.

I see *lots* of problems ...

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Re: Coming Soon: The "Vaccine Passport"

Caute_cautim — Tue, 16 Feb 2021 20:34:33 GMT

@rslade It is already here, the problem is the adoption, and standardisation, and agreement on standards - its all about Architectural Decision Points (ADPs). We can do this, if you want to travel again, freely we will need this, rather than be hemmed in, locked away and hidden in our current self committed dungeons.

Think positive, think with innovation - we have to change.

Regards

Caute_cautim

Re: Coming Soon: The "Vaccine Passport"

rslade — Tue, 16 Feb 2021 22:58:37 GMT

... And someone just reminded me: I forgot about blockchain. Somebody is going
to come out with some loony idea about using blockchain to fix all those problems
...

BLOCKCHAIN IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!

======================
rslade@gmail.com rmslade@outlook.com rslade@computercrime.org
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Re: Coming Soon: The "Vaccine Passport"

Early_Adopter — Wed, 17 Feb 2021 09:55:45 GMT

Even if what they really want is a tamper resistant distributed database that you they run on other people’s computers..?

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

sventester — Wed, 17 Feb 2021 15:42:49 GMT

Here's a counterpoint, especially for posts that include contempt for any skepticism of these types of solutions.

Pretty much anything can be done from a technical point of view. The point everyone seems to miss (especially techies) is that the execution will be a violation of, or an encroachment on, human rights. Here's a link to refresh your memories: https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Beyond that, it's irrational (and tyrannical) to believe it's OK to mandate the use of a product, that no company is willing to sell unless they are freed from being held legally accountable for it. This is the state of affairs today.

The UN estimates hundreds of thousands of children have died from malnutrition because of the downturn in the global economy caused by the lock-down in the west. Because us rich kids want to feel safe. I agree with Elon Musk; we're irrational, spoiled, cowards. And we have proved to be careless when we feel a little at risk. We are not helping the weak at all.

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

Caute_cautim — Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:25:03 GMT

@sventester I certainly see your point. But if the mandate comes from the various countries, stating you can enter a country without going through mandatory quarantine for 2 weeks or more, it is highly likely that people will adopt such a Vaccine Passport. This is rather like Australia deciding to throw out all Kiwi's who were born in New Zealand with a criminal record, despite the fact they have lived the majority of their lives in Australia - which is happening right now.

The mandate may come from each and every country to protect their borders, and they definitely need a means of proving beyond reasonable doubt that the individual has adhered to those conditions similar to a normal passport except is for health reasons. Plus remember some countries have conditions on entry existing now like proving that the individual has had "yellow fever", inoculation etc. These are accepted conditions, and applied by the laws and acts of that particular country. However, this pandemic, and its variations may carry on for a lot longer, and countries are entitled to protect their borders and have the right to refuse entry on many grounds.

Regards

Caute_cautim

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

sventester — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:09:03 GMT

It is bad risk management

I compare this with some companies' chase for closing "low" vulnerabilities in their intranet web applications. The mitigation strategies are completely out of proportion to the risk at hand. Professionals at risk management go along with this, without appreciating the numbers.

I am very much in favor of countries protecting their borders, but they should do so for reasons their people own agree with, and without putting their own people at higher risk (i.e mandating their own people take experimental vaccines). Or God forbid that wars will break out because of this.

This is where the politicization of the problem makes people lose perspective, and forget common sense risk management. Yellow fever, measles, HIV, are incomparable to COVID19 in their lethality. You cannot argue the "impact" of COVID19 is medium or high, we know it is "low". And the "likelihood" is probably "medium", just like the normal flu. So you end up with a situation where the whole world stagnates because one of the risks they face is a "low-medium". If I had stopped progress in a company because of a medium risk vulnerability I'd get fired the moment upper management figured out.

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

mencik — Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:03:39 GMT

@Caute_cautim wrote:
Plus remember some countries have conditions on entry existing now like proving that the individual has had "yellow fever", inoculation etc.

All that has been required for Yellow Fever is a yellow vaccination card. See picture. I suspect that a similar card will be used for Covid, and all the hubbub about digital programs, etc. is all for naught.

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

denbesten — Wed, 24 Feb 2021 05:41:00 GMT

@sventester wrote:
It is bad risk management

You cannot argue the "impact" of COVID19 is medium or high, we know it is "low". And the "likelihood" is probably "medium", ... If I had stopped progress in a company because of a medium risk vulnerability I'd get fired the moment upper management figured out.

I suspect this is an area where we will have to agree to disagree that our risk acceptance analysis/methodology differs. H/M/L only works well if the ARO and SLE fall within "normal" buckets. This often falls apart when the "impact" is death as it tends to pin the needle at H and (as you noted) result in emotional analysis. Much more effective is to evaluate with a "cost to mitigate risk" approach.

Today's ARO for Covid deaths is 1:700 in the US, which has to be balanced against a SLE in the millions if one were to lose a wrongful-death lawsuit. Putting these together, it is pretty easy to justify spending hundreds of dollars per employee on sneeze guards, face masks, thermal scanners, work-from-home, etc. The primary goal, of course, is to mitigate the likelihood of wrongful-death lawsuits being filed and the secondary goal is to lessen the impact caused by the addition of a "gross negligence" specification in cases where "reasonable precautions" can not be demonstrated.

Justification gets even easier if one starts to consider the impact of OSHA shutdown or staffing shortages due to quarantine.

If we think of this in terms of a scenario where the liability is clearly on the employer, I can guarantee you that my company would neither "accept" nor "transfer" a 1:700 ARO for fatal industrial accidents. This is clearly demonstrated by our spending millions per year in safety initiatives to mitigate the risk of industrial accidents.

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

sventester — Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:13:05 GMT

I like your point, and it's relevant in its own context. It's still a straw man argument in this context.

I agree with you from a corporate standpoint; vaccines certainly reduces the company's liability. If a corporation mandates it, and someone doesn't want to take the vaccine, they can quit that company. But if you have family in a different country, you cannot just 'quit' having a family.

Mandating "all people" do "something", or you take away rights, is a slippery slope. I'm pointing out freedom of movement specifically, but there are obviously other concerns.

Beyond that; this discussion, for me, is about clarity in risk management, ethics, and being able to see beyond the horizon in terms of "what comes next", or "what other risks are introduced". And my opinion is that there is little clarity here. It's very interesting from a professional point of view, as well as looking at other points in history when this exact same thing happened, and we gladly complied - out of fear (I recognize this is my opinion).

This discussion could just as well have been about government spying on people, where I also think there's lack of clarity on the matter. People find all kinds of reasons to justify that also. And fear of something seems to be a common denominator.

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

Caute_cautim — Sun, 28 Feb 2021 04:22:42 GMT

@sventester Thanks for your comments, I was a little busy too respond until now:

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/law-expert-warns-covid-19-vaccination-passports-might-lead-discrimination-some

Discrimination is a major issue, but when you see the number of passport being developed and tested:

https://www.iata.org/en/programs/passenger/travel-pass/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-09/what-are-vaccine-passports-and-how-would-they-work-quicktake

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/24/vaccine-passes-could-get-us-back-in-bars-.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/27/vaccine-passports-alternatives-mills-harm-principle-discrimination

Obviously, there are a lot of people and organisations, who want the old way of working returned as fast as possible. The Greenies may not like this, as they are still awaiting for the electric commercial aeroplanes to be developed, to waste Jet fuel being sprayed from aloft on to earth and the sea etc.

It is going to be a hard battle to convince everyone.

Regards

Caute_cautim

Re: Coming Soon: The ‘Vaccine Passport’

Early_Adopter — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 02:20:41 GMT

+1 I think that there is likely to be a number of process to verify vaccinations through paper trail before everyone agrees on a digital passport, or more accurately a common online vaccination validation service, as long as it’s ‘bound’ to the persons passport/ identification it should do the trick.

Pre, post and during flight testing seems to be working at current scale and while inconvenient it’s basically comparable to the effort for getting proper visas.

the quarantine period is quite restrictive for those few still traveling.

Re: Coming Soon: The "Vaccine Passport"

rslade — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 23:06:45 GMT

OK, didn't I tell you there were going to be problems with jurisdiction?

China is opening up to visitors!

As long as you have a Chinese vaccine ...