topic Re: Disadvantage non native speakers in Exams

Disadvantage non native speakers

Cees — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 09:18:35 GMT

Last month I have been studying CISSP with the books

CISSP offical study guide, 7th edition

CISSP offical study guide, 8th edition

CISSP offical student guide, 5th edition

I am not a native English speaker. my mothertongue is Dutch.

I made an English-Dutch dictionary with 30 essential words. https://quizlet.com/_5ibmh0

1. Some words are essential like non-repudiation but many other words can easily be replaced, e.g. rote memorisation. I call upon the writers of these books to take this into account. The English grammer is already enough of a challenge.

2. There is no Dutch dictionary allowed (online or hardcopy) during the exam, To me this is an unfair disavantage.

Why can't there be a dictionary provided during the exam.

Cees Doets

The Netherlands

Re: Disadvantage non native speakers

Curiousmind18 — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:36:37 GMT

This the isdue, well I'd call it annoyance, is the IT/Security Field's addiction to creating new acronyms, totally unneeded, as well as books that are using too much effort in trying to sound smart, than making the topics easily explained, to assist in learning of material, which forces some students to review multiple texts for understanding.... Hope you pass/psssed

Re: Disadvantage non native speakers

denbesten — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 18:23:56 GMT

Perhaps you could turn this into a job opportunity for yourself. Contact the author(s) and offer to write a translated version of the book in exchange for a portion of the royalties on its sales.

Re: Disadvantage non native speakers

Curiousmind18 — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:19:08 GMT

Funny enough, I have 2 books I'm trying to put together, one being CISSP and the other CEH...promise I will do my best, if it happens at all, to keep it simple lol

Re: Disadvantage non native speakers

rslade — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 23:48:47 GMT

@Cees wrote:
Last month I have been studying CISSP with the books
CISSP offical study guide, 7th edition
CISSP offical study guide, 8th edition
CISSP offical student guide, 5th edition

I am not a native English speaker. my mothertongue is Dutch.
I made an English-Dutch dictionary with 30 essential words. https://quizlet.com/_5ibmh0

What happened to the translated tests? Have they been phased out since the CAT-based exam came in? (I mean, they were never great, but ...)

1. Some words are essential like non-repudiation but many other words can easily be replaced, e.g. rote memorisation. I call upon the writers of these books to take this into account. The English grammer is already enough of a challenge.

Even for English-speakers an infosec dictionary is a good idea.

2. There is no Dutch dictionary allowed (online or hardcopy) during the exam, To me this is an unfair disavantage.

Why can't there be a dictionary provided during the exam.

Hmmmm. It used to be that an "English/Whatever" dictionary was the only book you could take into the exam ...

Re: Disadvantage non native speakers

denbesten — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 05:45:31 GMT

@rslade wrote:
What happened to the translated tests? Have they been phased out since the CAT-based exam came in? (I mean, they were never great, but ...)

They still exist. Unfortunately for @Cees, Dutch is not among the languages offered. The languages offered are English (CAT-based), French, German, Brazilian Portuguese, Spanish, Japanese, Simplified Chinese, Korean, Visually impaired.

Re: Disadvantage non native speakers

Cees — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 18:20:19 GMT

Hi CuriousMind18,

Are you creating study material?

I will be happy to contribute in proof reading for you, assuming the number of hours is reasonable.

Cees

Re: Disadvantage non native speakers

denbesten — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 22:31:50 GMT

(ISC)² does have both Acronym and Term glossaries that include translations into a few different languages, sadly not including Dutch.

Can't take them into a test, but they are useful as a study aid, even for those who natively speak English.

Re: Disadvantage non native speakers

dcontesti — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 11:57:46 GMT

@rslade Rob, I don't ever remember a dictionary being allowed in the testing centers (exam rooms).......even when I wrote the exam in 1995, they were not allowed.......things must have changed at some point.

I actually think that a dictionary would English to whatever would/could provide an unfair advantage......and in some cases might lead the candidate to the correct answer.

Just my nickel (canadian) on a very early morning.

Regards

Diana

Re: dcontesti mentioned you in (ISC)Â² Community

rslade — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 18:43:52 GMT

> dcontesti (Contributor I) mentioned you in a post! Join the conversation below:

> Rob, I don't ever remember a dictionary being allowed in the testing
> centers (exam rooms)

Well, of course. You were a mere Board member. *I*, on the other hand, was an
instructor!

Seriously, though, we did have to confirm a lot more about the details of the exam
and process, since we got so many questions during the seminars. The dictionary
thing was one we heard regularly in the instructors' meetings. I even confirmed it
with the pyschometrician at one point.

>.......even when I wrote the exam in 1995, they were not
> allowed.......things must have changed at some point.

A not unlikely possibility. I know that [foreign language]/English dictionaries
were allowed by 2001. I think I last had it conformed in 2008, when the
translated tests were on offer. It's quite possible that the rules have changed again,
since we've had the change in pschometric outfits, and then the change to
computer-based exams, and now the change to CAT.

> I actually think that
> a dictionary would English to whatever would/could provide an unfair
> advantage......and in some cases might lead the candidate to the correct answer.

Not too sure how much of an advantage a [foreign language]/English dictionary
would be, since it doesn't actually provide any definitions. And I recall my times
as a college/uni instructor. I used to offer open book exams. I stopped when it
got too painful watching kids who hadn't paid attention during the course came in
loaded down with resources and spent the whole exam madly flipping through
material they didn't understand vainly looking for the answer ...

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Re: dcontesti mentioned you in (ISC)Â² Community

dcontesti — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 14:20:43 GMT

@rslade Rob, prior to being on the Board, "I" was an exam supervisor/proctor and my instructions from the Holy Three (Scott Hayden, Warren Pearce and Ben Gaddy) was no dictionaries of any sort...As with all things they change.

However I still feel that a dictionary could unfairly help a candidate....this is my opinion only.

Re: Disadvantage non native speakers

dcontesti — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 14:26:20 GMT

Totally agree that English (especially American English) can be and is confusing to non-english speaking folk.

Just look at words that are spelled the same but mean different things i.e.: process or process...same word on the surface but in context can mean two different things.

I know (ISC)2 was working on translating exams, etc but it is a costly process (ooops there's that word) and also can take time to do.

I suggest you and others send a note to Member Services with a request for Dutch translation (I believe they can forward to the appropriate folk).

Regards

Diana

Re: dcontesti mentioned you in (ISC)Â² Community

Cees — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 17:03:38 GMT

>>> However I still feel that a dictionary could unfairly help a candidate....this is my opinion only. >>>

Why do you think this is unfair?

BTW, there is an online dictionary available during the exam for several languages but not Dutch.

Cees Doets

The Netherlands

Re: dcontesti mentioned you in (ISC)Â² Community

rslade — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 19:03:22 GMT

> dcontesti (Contributor I) mentioned you in a post! Join the conversation below:

> As with all things they change.

Interesting to see the changes over time.

> However I still feel that a dictionary could unfairly help a candidate....

Especially if you write cheat notes in the margins 🙂

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Re: dcontesti mentioned you in (ISC)Â² Community

dcontesti — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 12:45:43 GMT

Sorry missed this one.

I guess it's a personal thing. If I have a dictionary that spells out the definition of a word, it might/could help lead me to a specific answer....whether that answer may be write or wrong is questionable but it could provide an advantage to some folk.

This is my personal opinion and I may be wrong but then I don't set the rules.

I was not aware that there were dictionaries available during the exam but if there are, it should be fair and they should be available in all languages (again a PERSONAL opinion).

Regards

Diana

Re: dcontesti mentioned you in (ISC)Â² Community

dcontesti — Tue, 15 Jan 2019 12:46:48 GMT

@rslade

Cheat notes in the margins......HA, I write them on my sleeve 😉

Re: dcontesti mentioned you in (ISC)Â² Community

Cees — Wed, 16 Jan 2019 08:15:59 GMT

Now I understand your word unfair!

the dictionary I mean is not the explanantion of a word but the translation.

E.g. Non-repudiation would be onweerlegbaarheid in the Dutch laguage.

Re: dcontesti mentioned you in (ISC)Â² Community

dcontesti — Wed, 16 Jan 2019 19:22:32 GMT

Thanks for clearing up that. I went to the literal meaning of the word dictionary.....

I have no issue with a straight translation between languages

Have a great week

Diana

Re: Disadvantage non native speakers

kmjordan — Fri, 18 Jan 2019 08:20:16 GMT

I took my CSSLP exam at the end of a boot camp training class week. Of the 12 class participants, 7 of us elected to take the exam that week. Of the 7 exam takers, 5 were native English speakers, and 2 were not. The 5 native English speakers passed, and the 2 non-native English speakers did not.

While taking the exam, I noted that a lot of the keywords that had been covered during training were not on the exam - instead, synonyms were used, so English vocabulary became vital to understanding the questions. I suspect a dictionary (or perhaps a thesaurus!) would have been helpful to the non-native English speakers, and wonder if that was a contributing factor in the exam results.