topic Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards in Career Discussions

Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

DAlexander — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 03:14:15 GMT

Fellow Security Professionals,

Many of us have received business cards or correspondence that included a line of acronyms following the individual's name. I used to believe this was only necessary with medical doctors and accountants to make sure I didn't go to the dentist to help me find a tax break. Over the years however, I have seen this practice become more commonplace in many other professional fields including IT/Cybersecurity. There doesn't seem to be an acceptable standard on what should or shouldn't be included and I would like to open a discussion to see what others in the field think.

It would only be fair for me to share my opinion first with the very clear disclaimer that it is ONLY my humble opinion and not meant to criticize anyone else’s views or practices. I welcome the discussion and am very interested in hearing about your perspectives.

I always ask myself what the objective is for listing any of my certifications or education before I include them on anything. So far, the only place I have found it necessary is on my resume so I can get through the HR filters and show my qualifications for the position I am competing for. The position I am in now requires I maintain a certain baseline so I do not feel it is necessary to list that information anywhere. The complicated part is that few people outside the field know what the baseline is or even what it takes to attain it which, leads me to believe it is even more unnecessary to include it. This is one of the few instances I suppose it’s easier to be a doctor. When they write Dr. Doogie Howser, MD, everyone already knows they have a PhD and are CPR certified. In this field it is less defined and that is where the uncertainty comes.

The other aspect I sometimes contemplate with is how to handle the certifications and education that are above the baseline.

Overall, my past experiences have led me to believe that listing my certifications and education is unnecessary. Recently however, I have begun to wonder if we as a community are missing an opportunity to open lines of communication by not advertising all the different ways to contribute to the field. My hypothesis is that listing a bunch of foreign acronyms could be the ice breaker to start a conversation with an aspiring Cybersecurity professional. I hope to gain some insight through this discussion and look forward to your responses.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Steve-Wilme — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:25:17 GMT

As with many things it all depends ...

If other people in your company or industry sector list their post nominals then it's probably okay to list yours, however only those that are relevant to the context. So if your procurement colleagues put MCIPS after their name, your accountants put FCA, your marketer use FCIM etc your may also choose to use your post nominals. However be prepared for some people to ask, other to assume they just some IT acronym and also be prepared for other to assume there's arrogance in drawing attention to them.

I won't put IT qualifications or courses as post nominals though as it looks odd. The number of times I've seen ISO 27001 LA or ITIL or six sigma after people names!

Steve

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

mgoblue93 — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 16:39:13 GMT

Personally, I don't do it; mileage may vary for others.

I don't simply because what's the motivation for posting nominals? Few people at my work outside of project managers put their alphabet soup in their signature. I guess the reason is we do stuff to make money. If it doesn't make money, we don't do it. We do a lot of meetings with clients. We don't do much email.

The only reason PMs do it is where the SOW requires a PM has a PMI certification. Even then, it's limited to:

J. Doe, PMP

Is there a belief out there signature block proliferation equals credibility?

Cachet?

Experience?

Do people not in the know want have knowledge about others' accomplishments?

I have no idea... it's definitely a curious topic though.

For the causal observer would my block of...

J. Doe, MBA, MS, BS, SCJP, CCNA, SCF, CISSP, CEH

title

company

contact info

...mean more than this:

J. Doe

title

company

contact info

If so why? I'm genuinely curious about this!

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Baechle — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 19:00:36 GMT

Daniel,

In my correspondence, I don't list anything. I do this for one particular - and a little selfish - reason:

I want my discussions, arguments, and statements to be judged on their own merit rather than be defended by a qualification.

If I am engaging someone in a conversation I want to be both credible and memorable without any assistance. If I failed to do that, then I have some personal growth to accomplish.

In my experience, when I succeed, I often get asked something along the lines of, "Where did you learn that?" That is the opportunity to discuss qualifications, learning paths, and life experiences.

Sincerely,

Eric B.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

MDCole9761 — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 19:38:56 GMT

Definitely well said by the others above!

I actually researched this a little over the past few years as I obtained my BS in Information Technology and most recently my CISSP. Like many here, I have a slew of certifications that I've obtained (and maintained) over the years.

The general consensus on the Internet (if there is such a thing) is that, in general, it's frowned upon to do so UNLESS there are circumstances that warrant it. It's apparently commonplace in academia (to establish one's credibility as a first hand source of information) as well as certain industries and professions. As an example, a financial auditing firm would be more likely to have a signature/business card that includes "CPA" or an financial planning agent to have "CFP" to demonstrate that they are certified to perform the work they do (and would not be allowed to do it without that certification). This hold true for medical doctors- they are a first hand source of medical information and cannot practice medicine without that license/degree so the significance of it bears promotion. Although I take a lot of pride in my accomplishments and certainly feel that there are aspects of Information Technology (especially cybersecurity) that should not be handled by untrained or unqualified staff, there is also no legal or regulatory constraint that requires it for the work being performed. As others pointed out, the majority will likely see it as arrogant and pompous and so should be avoided under most circumstances. Like Baechle above, I like to keep it very simple and be judged for being myself. Don't forget the other side of the coin- if you put those degrees/certs out there, you'd better be ready to become infallible in every aspect related to what they represent!!

A typical signature/business card should include your name, company, title and any contact information you wish to share. As others have said, it's during conversations that the degrees, certifications, etc. will be organically revealed when deemed relevant.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Illsteward — Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:49:43 GMT

There is also another point of view. Historicaly, in several countries (especially in the old Austrian-Hungarian Empire and it's descendant countries) it is common to use the academic or other title as a mean of introduction. Instead of saing "Mr. X" we use "Engineer X." if they have technical education, "Magister X." if they have humanital education and "Diplomed specialist X" if they have a vocational degree. Same with doctorate positions and - in business cases - same with Bc. (though this is not too common yet). In business contact in my country, this is even sometimes multiplied if said person holds various degrees. I had a woman introduced to me as "Missis Magister X Y, diplomed specialist" recently. While the last example is a bit over-the-top, I basicaly feel like HAVING to honor this code and list my highest profesional credential (in my case, SSCP) as not only a part of my signature, but also in e-mails and so on. I got asked once how should I be introduced, and they insisted to call me out as "Mr. Sedlacek, system security certified professional" in the end. So it depends on culture basis as well.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

CISOScott — Fri, 27 Apr 2018 14:47:57 GMT

I am of the belief that less is better. If you feel the need to list EVERY certification you have ever accomplished, then it seems to come across as bragging or looking for status. I have seen people with very long alphabet soups after their name. Most times I never really notice the credentials after the name unless it is too long. Then it becomes "Why do they feel the need to put so much info out there?" I am reminded of the Shakespeare quote "Me think thou dost protest too much." In other words, what are you trying to prove by putting it all out there?

I much rather see a list of certifications held in a separate place on the resume, rather than trying to decipher alphabet soup. Also if you have an entry level cert like Security+ and then earn a more advanced cert like CISSP, stop listing the Security+ in your signature block. It is fine to still list it on your resume, especially if the job announcement requires it. Also if you were applying for a job that required it, I wouldn't mind seeing it behind your signature, but don't make me search for it through a whole string of other certs.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

canLG0501 — Fri, 04 May 2018 17:53:50 GMT

I totally agree that my consults should stand alone and not depend on alphabet soup following my name, but there are exceptions. If I am new to the organization I usually list my highest degree obtained along with my most recent certification. I personally feel two-three items listed in a signature does not look ridiculous!

Just my 2 cents!

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Beads — Fri, 04 May 2018 20:44:26 GMT

Email. First correspondence is fine but I drop the signature block on subsequent emails. Over time reading the same 2-10 signature blocks simply feels unwarranted. I do this even if I am forced to delete the organization standard as I go along.

Business cards are another matter as those cards are generally used to exchange information in a business related matter.

If you want to use a business card for social situations, have separate contact cards printed but without the post-nominal information included.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Baechle — Fri, 04 May 2018 22:11:01 GMT

Latasha (@canLG0501),

There are two things that happen to me psychologically when I read a message containing a signature block with credentials. The first thing is that I become curious about the credential and the credential holder. The second is that I elevate my expectations about what was written in the body of the message.

In the first instance, it means that I typically look up the credential to see what is required to obtain it. Looking at schools for degrees, and the certification or licensing body for other credentials. I also attempt to figure out how long the person was credentialed for. For example, did they just obtain their degree or certificate last month, or did they have it for the last 15 years?

In the second instance, I’m immediately more interested in scrutinizing the body of the message for mistakes, misunderstandings, or inaccuracies. Not grammar or anything like that. I’m looking for clear, audience-focused communication. The content should be well supported like an academic paper, with references. And the concepts should be sound with acknowledgements made for gaps in experience or understanding. And then… it makes me want to engage in debate… Like good old fashioned academic debate like as in upper graduate courses.

Does anyone else have a similar or different reaction to seeing credentials in a signature?

Sincerely,

Eric B.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

denbesten — Sat, 05 May 2018 15:37:53 GMT

There is a balance that comes down to motivation. If you list them because you are proud of your accomplishments, keep in mind that pride is one of the seven deadly sins.

However, they can be useful in a professional setting. For example, I like seeing certifications on a sales-engineer's card. Knowing I am talking with another CISSP assures me there is a common vocabulary, a common understanding of risk measurement, and that they understand "security" is a lifestyle, not a check-box. Although their recommendations remain biased to their own benefit, it does make the discussion flow smoother.

It is very similar to being in a hospital and having the doctor realize a family member is a doctor or a RN. Instantly, they start talking in this strange latin-esque gibberish and within a minute or so, tremendous detail has been communicated. Having been in this situation a number of times, it has taught me both the value of techie discussion and also how isolating it can make others feel when done in the wrong setting.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Flyslinger2 — Thu, 17 May 2018 13:19:41 GMT

My "feeling" on the first glance at an email, business card, bio, etc. is to cringe and then wonder what selfish motives are behind the listing of 20 creds. I mean really. What does it prove? That the person is a professional student, test taker and braggart. I certainly wouldn't want to be teamed with that person on a real project for a real customer who has a huge outage.

Even when I was a business owner my title was "consultant".

Is someone paying me because I can list the alphabet several times behind my name or because I have a strong reputation in the IT world and come highly recommended? I hope the latter because the prior never happens.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

oms — Mon, 21 May 2018 18:00:07 GMT

Dear denbesten,

interesting point, I agre. Here in good ald Europe (Germany) this is not as common as in the US but increasing.

I came across signatures in E-Mails which were containing titles assigned by organizations of no reputation with no value at all. This causes actually the oposit what - I guess - people were trying to achieve - it disqualifiues them cause they seem to have not much knowledge of this market.

Personally, in E-Mails or un business cards I use the official job title and nothing else.

There's one thing I recently changed - I added CISSP to the Description field on Linkedin next to my job title (but not any other cert). I am just curious if that has any influence on searches by recruiters.

Anyone experiance with that?

Kind regards,

oms

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Baechle — Mon, 21 May 2018 21:06:44 GMT

@oms wrote:

There's one thing I recently changed - I added CISSP to the Description field on Linkedin next to my job title (but not any other cert). I am just curious if that has any influence on searches by recruiters.

Anyone experiance with that?

My Linked In stats showed that out of 39 search hits last week, the #1 of the top 4 terms was CISSP.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Beads — Tue, 22 May 2018 14:35:30 GMT

@oms

Listing the CISSP a few short years ago would instantly garner probably more attention than you wish but today it will certainly increase your search results. Its calmed down somewhat but still provides a good increase.

Americans have always fallen for the over self-promotion thing to the point of being part of the culture. Probably why I rarely see contact cards instead of business cards these days. Still I am always flattered to be presented a contact card.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

crossmage — Tue, 22 May 2018 17:03:08 GMT

This has been an interesting discussion to read.

I used to work in an environment where work was portioned out by certs. Walls of framed certs, or flip books, or databases matching name to cert were all tools of the trade back then. For a VAR or Integrator, we might only work if we had the appropriate certification, so gaining a dozen or twenty or more certs was a way to keep getting gigs. I still occasionally find a certification I forgot I ever earned, except it was necessary for one long-ago project.

In the 90's I used lots of certs after my name on cards and e-mail signatures, to try to prove my worth (as much to myself as to my customers).

In the 00's, I reduced it to the two most important certs to create a baseline for my value.

Now I use those same two, plus a cloud cert, to build bridges with stakeholders (mostly cloud architects) in other business units.

When I read certs in a signature, I like it. It's a way of establishing a baseline of knowledge I can (often) assume they have to start a conversation. If it's a cert I've never seen before, I now have something to talk to them about and a way to get to know them a little better.

Like most things, why you do it may be more important than whether you do it. Are you using it to help your ego, as I did in the 90's? Or are you using it to build better working relationships and to help your organization? One of these is a better path than the other.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

crossmage — Tue, 22 May 2018 17:14:36 GMT

On LinkedIn, I have the three key certs as a part of my last name. I also have a custom headline showing my current professional focus and a custom image which reinforces the headline. (I had to do this to stop getting so many invitations and messages where they were looking for what I used to do, not what I want to do.)

Checking my the searches in which I recently appeared, I see that there are lots of searches for multiple certs - the number one showing a search for four certs, and three of them are in my name.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Baechle — Tue, 22 May 2018 17:46:12 GMT

James,

@crossmage wrote:

In the 90's I used lots of certs after my name on cards and e-mail signatures, to try to prove my worth (as much to myself as to my customers).

You raised an interesting point about ego. I have an example of that in play when I first started advertising my qualifications in email and business cards, and another about when I stopped.

Eating my Alphabet Soup

There was definitely a time in my career when I walked around flaunting my qualifications. I found that before I either had the qualification or used it, I would often have to defend my designs and estimates articulately to my boss and my clients. I believed at the time (in the late 90’s early 00’s) that if I beat people about the head with my alphabet soup of qualifications that they would stop making me do all the extra work defending my position. That was before I was mature enough to realize that relationships were more important than lapel pins.

What I actually found was that I had to defend my position even more than before. Once I earned a more advanced certification, I found myself now being challenged by my own peers on my designs and estimates; even bringing competing designs and estimates to my boss. We would have laborious conversations in front of a dry erase board about the detailed steps and settings and their net effect. I had no problems sharing my knowledge and experience and taking criticism on my design, but somehow it always seemed to be under the pretext of proving that the certification was a sham or I that didn’t deserve it.

I never recovered while I was in that position. When I moved on to the next position, I only used the CISSP-ISSEP and eventually dropped even that from my signature line. Instead I went back to citing and sourcing all of my designs and estimates in the proposals and all was good with the world.

Alphabet Soup with Crackers

What happened at this next position as the CISSP (and other qualifications) became more prevalent solidified my view that relying upon certifications in professional communication is problematic. At this next position, I worked as a systems security engineer. Instead of submitting designs and proposals, I was now reviewing them for completeness and errors. I would forward them on with a “recommend approval” letter or a “recommend denial” letter with a statement of reasons.

Several folks would submit proposals, which overall were very detailed and complete, but had one fatal flaw or just needed a small change in order to meet organizational policy. Although several people made challenges as to credentials, one stands out in my mind as the most appalling. I went back and forth with a systems architect over a proposal, and returned the proposal with comments citing organizational policy and collateral impacts to security. Now, I returned the proposal expecting those issues to be addressed with either mitigative controls or a request to accept the residual risk. Instead, I got a message that said, “There are no residual risks, and I’m right because I’m a CISSP.”

I mean, I’ll admit that I’ve silently thought I’m right because I’m a CISSP in my head, but I would never say it much less rely on it as my evidence of a sound proposal! We went back and forth, and this other CISSP basically argued with Gibberish expecting that as apparently a non-CISSP (because it wasn’t in my signature line), the argument would appear over my head and I would concede. The proposal had 30 days to be corrected before it was outright denied. We went back and forth so long that it finally reached the 30 day mark, and I signed the “recommend denial” letter using my credentials, a copy of which went back to the architect. I never heard from that other CISSP again.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Flyslinger2 — Tue, 22 May 2018 17:56:33 GMT

I'm all for almost complete anonymity for the same reason-I do not need the notoriety. I'm very comfortable with my ethics, work product and reputation in the industry. I am turning away amazing job offers all the time.

My current task requires "CISSP" in my signature block because of the project that I am on. It is a proactive message sent to all that I interact with that I do have the credentials to complete the task. If it wasn't politically motivated, and I *hate* politics, I wouldn't have it there.

Re: Listing Certifications and Degrees in Signature Blocks or Business Cards

Steve-Wilme — Tue, 22 May 2018 18:13:58 GMT

Nice post! Yes it can be a tick box mentality. I always look at it as a case of not sitting on my arse and finding out a few things I didn't previously know. Knowledge is cumulative; it's the last 5-10% that makes the crucial difference. It comes across as a bit left field but it can save your bacon.