topic Re: Don’t be getting too high… in Career Discussions

Don’t be getting too high…

Lamont29 — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 17:17:24 GMT

My recent experience while applying to some high-level jobs have taught me a few things. I wish that ‘envy’ did not play a role in hiring decisions – but it does of course. On several occasions, my resume suggested that I was more qualified than the person interviewing me. On a couple other occasions, I felt like a psychologist, listening to the complaints of senior people who should have been interviewing me for a job. Frustrated by their own lack of apparent certification accomplishments, they find a way to disqualify me for an opportunity. Just yesterday, an HR manager called me fuming that the person who should have been calling me in for a technical interview refused to even meet with me – now how odd is that?

Lucky for me, I still have more opportunities, and better yet, firm offers on the table that I am mulling. I have better luck as a contractor, but it would have been nice to have something more certain and close to home.

I have now learned to go onto Linkedin.com and research key businesses and their hiring managers. I tried “dumbing-down” my resume. I suspect that I will get more call-ins, albeit less hits. It’s just an experiment. I will give it a month or so and report back what I find.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

RRMaillet — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 13:23:29 GMT

I find your anecdotes to be interesting and somewhat reflective of my current situation. I report to a manager that started his Post-Secondary when I began my IT career (now on my 14th year). He is a DBA and I would never reproach his data analysis capabilities...he is very good at what he does!

In the past, he and I would virtually be running the department together. I've worked in the Financial industry for 6 years in Infrastructure and Manufacturing for 3 years supporting the entire user base. I've seen a bit and bring that over so we can use some "big business" approaches to our ~120 users.

In the last year that I was studying for, and now obtained my, CISSP and I've started noticing that he's become a little more...reserved about bringing me into the loop for decisions and setting direction. I'm becoming a little worried that he may be feeling intimidated. I do plan on having a social and broaching the subject to make sure he understands I'm not in the business of undercutting.

Great post and looking forward to read more from you!

Robert Maillet

CCNA, A+, MCITP, Associate (ISC)2

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Baechle — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 14:54:48 GMT

Robert,

Do you invoke the CISSP when you're making a point on security or engineering in a discussion - especially if you're loosing an argument? Did you request any other assignments or a raise?

Sincerely,

Eric B.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

RRMaillet — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 15:07:59 GMT

Hi Baechle!

No. I don't want my CISSP to become, or be viewed as, a sledgehammer that trumps all else.

As for requesting another assignment...all IT work is done in a team of 3 people: me, my manager and our junior DBA. There really isn't anywhere internally to go. My wife said that she thinks they're worried I may be looking to leave. I'm not exactly running for the exit and my stance has always been that I'll entertain potential valuable opportunities but I am happy where I am.

As for the raise part...I haven't asked for one. I know our company's review is coming up but again, my purpose is not to use my CISSP as a sledge. I am not exactly being compensated well compared to others of my experience level but, from the "intangibles" (people, culture, the work) I'm content!

Regards

Robert Maillet

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

MDCole9761 — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 15:42:25 GMT

Thank you Lamont for posting this- it's an interesting insight that I hadn't considered! I'm currently applying to/interviewing for new opportunities (I'm in a small organization with no where to go internally and am also looking to relocated to Central Florida) and have been trying to highlight my certifications, education and accomplishments due to sometime ridiculously high expectations on most job postings. I had never considered the fact that there may be some hiring managers that will be intimidated by it all and refuse my application. Granted it's probably a small percentage, but still it's an interesting experiment and I'm curious to see your results!

It does remind me about some resume advice I had been given in the past- your resume isn't meant to get you the job, just the interview (where you can dazzle them with your background, accomplishments, certs, etc.). I know my resume is probably too "loaded" and needs to be lighter (I have a hard time keeping it to just two pages). You've definitely given me something to think about!

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Baechle — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 16:39:54 GMT

Robert, (@RRMaillet)

What about the certification of your manager and coworker(s)? Have they been studying for or have they taken any certification tests? Did you all study together?

I recall back in my first IT job, I was doing IT Audit with two coworkers and we carpooled. Both of them were technologists, and I was from security (read that as loss prevention - like security guard type security). They were both talking about failing the CompTIA A+. That was the first I heard of it... so I went out and studied and passed in like a week, both exams on the same day. The next time they brought it up, one was asking if the other was going to take it again, and both were belittling the test as beneath them. I offered to help them study - still didn't tell them I passed the test. They started laughing and mocking me... that's when I told them I had passed. I wasn't really in the "in crowd" anyway because I wasn't from "IT". But I wasn't even invited to go to lunch with them anymore after I told them I passed the test. And that was just the A+.

So, when did you pass the test? Did you ask one of them to do your endorsement?

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Baechle — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 17:07:16 GMT

Lamont,

I’ve been getting offered quite a few positions through LinkedIn – But I’ve had the opposite experience. The folks contacting me are looking at my experience and expanding it well beyond what I can do. I’ve had to explain to HR many times that when I say “this” (CISSP) in my resume it doesn’t mean “that” (Application Developer) and yet the hiring managers still want to interview me. Still odd though.

Eric B.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Lamont29 — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 17:13:21 GMT

@MDCole9761wrote:
Thank you Lamont for posting this- it's an interesting insight that I hadn't considered!

I am happy to hear it when my advice can be of help to someone. Just play it backwards when you see something that can help someone else. Thanks.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Lamont29 — Fri, 13 Apr 2018 17:23:54 GMT

@Baechlewrote:
Lamont,

I’ve been getting offered quite a few positions through LinkedIn – But I’ve had the opposite experience. The folks contacting me are looking at my experience and expanding it well beyond what I can do. I’ve had to explain to HR many times that when I say “this” (CISSP) in my resume it doesn’t mean “that” (Application Developer) and yet the hiring managers still want to interview me. Still odd though.

Eric B.

Yeah, I've touched on that in an earlier post. Where I thought I were interviewing for a GOV,RISK,COMP position and by the time I got deep into the conversation, it became apparent that the needs were MCSE, RCHE and CCNP. Yeah, we have to train and advise them of their needs too.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

suigeneris25 — Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:16:39 GMT

One thing that stuck out at me about your post is where you said the managers were complaining about their problems. This is a good thing.

I've been to a professional career counselor and he put it like this, when you go to a doctor, who has the problem? You. Who does most of the talking? You.

Likewise, when you are at a job interview, who has the problem? They do, they have a need to fill. So if they are doing a lot of complaining about how things are not going right, I would see this as a huge opportunity to highlight how I can solve the problems and so they should hire me.

That's my 2¢.

David Leonard

Associate of (ISC)², CEH, Security+, et al.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Lamont29 — Thu, 19 Apr 2018 13:35:07 GMT

@suigeneris25wrote:

Likewise, when you are at a job interview, who has the problem? They do, they have a need to fill. So if they are doing a lot of complaining about how things are not going right, I would see this as a huge opportunity to highlight how I can solve the problems and so they should hire me.

I'd be inclined to agree with you except that the complaining actually is about their 'personal' problems, not an issue where I can use my professional expertise to resolve the issue that they are complaining about. I don't like being in that position as an applicant. Maybe after I am hired, I'd be more open to entertaining some personal problems to some degree.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Baechle — Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:06:26 GMT

Lamont.

I guess that all depends on where you want to be, professionally. In my experience, the personality that someone brings to an environment is more important than his or her technical skills. Employers can provide training for technical skills. Someone’s personality is generally set in life and takes a great deal more effort and time to change.

I prefer working in smaller organizations where I gel with the people, over organizations that directly match my skills and experience or potentially even pay better. If you simply don’t get along or share viewpoints with the people expressing their problems, then that is one thing. But on the other hand, these folks felt comfortable enough with you to open up personally – bring you into their life. How you choose to respond to that in an interview may show more about who you really are and how you’ll fit into their team than your ability to kick flip a server rack into position while sky diving from a balloon at 100 miles, blind folded and on fire.

Sincerely,

Eric B.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Beads — Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:16:25 GMT

@suigeneris25

No. Simply no. As a senior security practitioner I am there to solve a business problem revolving around security. For that matter all things security are fair game but whining and complaining about non-security related problems are just as bad as the candidate who bad-mouths a current or former employer. Don't waste your time with these folks as you'd be walking into a nightmare organization without focus or a department that's likely skiddering off its own tracks.

What Lamont is saying is that the organization didn't respect the candidate's time and effort to come in, interview and probably weren't serious about solving a problem in the first place.

I have had interviews like this before and always politely tell the recruiter or organization to quietly forget my contact information.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Baechle — Thu, 19 Apr 2018 18:15:47 GMT

Brent (@Beads),

I think your comment highlights what I was saying about where you want to fit into an organization. You define yourself as a senior security practitioner. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Each of us gets to identify ourselves the way we want and set our own career goals.

From what Lamont opened this conversation with, it appeared as though the major topic wasn’t about addressing the interviewer’s political viewpoints, disagreements with other departments over budget, or other dirty laundry – instead it appeared to be about a business problem impacting the department to which he was applying. Specifically, the career development of the existing security department employees.

Now, depending on where you want to fit into this organization I currently see two options: (1) Decide what you want is a senior technician/engineering role and this isn’t a problem you want to solve; or (2) Decide what you want is a leadership role and this is a problem that you can address using non-technical soft skills.

I personally don’t see a problem with either choice. But, it is up to each of us to make on our own.

Sincerely,

Eric B.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

suigeneris25 — Wed, 09 May 2018 12:32:41 GMT

I wasn't aware that the venting was about personal issue. That changes my post to where I agree with him. I originally thought when he said talking about problems it meant business problems and my point was that's a job interview gold mine.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Beads — Wed, 09 May 2018 12:31:36 GMT

Perhaps we can disagree without resorting to simplistic, juvenile name calling and inappropriate comments on a "professional" discussion board.

If so yes, I really will. If you are unsure as to what it means... well, lets try to keep it clean shall we?

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

suigeneris25 — Wed, 09 May 2018 12:32:02 GMT

N.B. (that means nota bene): I was agreeing with you. I was wrong in interpreting his comment that the complaining was business-related. Since it was not business-related, I agree with you that he should exit the interview quickly.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Johnbbaker — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 20:56:53 GMT

So true, those who do not pursue excellence constantly try and downplay the accomplishments of others (at least until they get theirs!). Good luck and continue the good fight.

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

Steve-Wilme — Tue, 24 Apr 2018 07:38:03 GMT

On balance you wouldn't want to take a job with an organisation which resented your qualifications and competencies. It could make for a lot of frustration and a difficult working relationship.

Steve

Re: Don’t be getting too high…

CISOScott — Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:22:48 GMT

Understand this is my point of view as a former hiring manager and I am not attributing this to anyone in this thread.

I never was envious of the candidates I interviewed. I am hiring a SME (Subject Matter expert) so I expect you to know more than me. I did however see several candidates, and it wasn't all of them, who had a long list of alphabet soup behind their names who were very arrogant and condescending. I know personally of one individual who got a PhD and then demanded everyone call him Dr. He eventually lost his job due to his inability to communicate effectively with others as he spoke down to people and made them feel stupid. He also did not communicate what he was doing to senior management and kind of operated like the wizard in the Wizard of Oz. Hiding behind a shower curtain while trying to maintain the image of an all-knowing, omnipotent security professional. He had gotten too high.

For me the resume was just to see who I invited to the interview. I scored several things to narrow down my list and these included: work experience, certifications (capped at 3), awards and education. Some candidates had lots of education but no certs or experience; some had lots of experience but no certs or education; some were even over-qualified for the job; some just put their resume in for every job out there, whether they were qualified or not.

If an applicant was over-qualified I would still offer the interview to see if they were a fit. Sometimes if they came in to the interview with that "I'm superior to you attitude" they were not extended a job offer. Does that mean I was envious of them? No. I just don't want to hire jerks. Does that mean every hiring official is like me? No. There are jerks that do hiring also.

My point in all of this is to agree with Lamont, don't get too high when you apply for jobs. Don't "dumb down" your resume to make you seem less qualified, ensure your resume has enough of the right information to get you to the interview. If you feel you are over qualified, include a cover letter stating why you desire that job. I once had an applicant with 6 PhD's apply for an IT job. His PhD's were all in religion and were from a bible college, which had nothing to do with IT. I took it as he was trying to be too high and thought I might be impressed with all those PhD's, nope didn't have anything to do with IT. He included information that was not relevant to the job.

Once you get the interview, then it is a two-way street to see if you are the right fit for each other. I have turned down some jobs during the interview. I could see that it was not the right environment for me.